Tag Archives for atheism

The Internet Monk on Atheism

Michael Spencer, a.k.a. the Internet Monk, is a Baptist pastor and blogger who doesn’t think like a Baptist (I think he considers himself post-evangelical).  I think he has some interesting perspectives on things, but I often don’t agree with him.  Today, I do.  He’s written a very interesting post on the standard evangelical attitudes toward atheism.  I think it’s worth reading, and I think many atheists would also agree with some of what he says.  Or maybe not… it’s hard to tell.

An excerpt:

Our team looks good to us. Trust me, they don’t look that good to atheists. If you applaud the point-scoring at debates, you’re missing the point entirely. The fact that someone like Dan Barker (and there are dozens more) is out there at all, making it plain that the Christian journey has brought a crowd of people just like YOU to the point where atheism looked far, far better than what you were hearing in church and trying to live is all the ammunition that’s needed for thousands of people.

You see, evangelicals have made such outrageous assumptions and promises about happiness, healing, everything working out, knowing God, answered prayer, loving one another and so on that proving us to be liars isn’t even a real job. It’s just a matter of tuning in to an increasing number of voices who say “It’s OK to not believe. Give yourself a break. Stop tormenting yourself trying to believe. Stop propping up your belief with more and more complex arguments. Just let go of God.”

Read the rest here.

Another Romans 1:22 moment

Debunking Christianity, which occasionally has some good discussions, typically provides daily proof of Romans 1:22.  Today is not exception, with this post, in which the author concludes his argument with “Therefore, it cannot be the nonbelievers’ fault for willfully choosing to reject God.”  It is wasted effort, however, as the very first proposition is flawed. He assumes that to make a choice to disbelieve in God must be irrational if God exists.

However, I don’t think this is the case at all.  Just follow Paul’s line of thought in Romans 1.  Man doesn’t begin a fool, he (or her, for that matter) becomes a fool by his decisions.  But then, I’m sure the author wouldn’t give any weight to Paul’s argument in the first place, as his conversion, so to speak, is already complete.

It is still beyond me how people can direct so much energy into not believing something.  I tend to think many of them have “jilted lover” syndrome.

Oh, the irony…

I challenge Christians to look into psychological studies and brain research to see such things as how the brain is woefully inadequate to be objective about the facts. We skew the evidence in favor of conclusions we want to be true all of the time. – John Loftus, Debunking Christianity

Compare:

“I’m talking of the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself; I WANT atheism to be true. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief; It’s not that I hope there is no God! I don’t WANT there to be a God; I don’t WANT the universe to be like that. I am curious whether there is anyone who is genuinely indifferent as to whether there is a God – anyone who, whatever his actual belief about the matter, doesn’t particularly WANT either one of the answers to be correct.” - atheist philosopher Thomas Nage

Romans 1:22 strikes again

Daily, it seems, I find examples to prove the truth of Romans 1:22, “Claiming to be wise, they became fools.”  I will probably start a new category for this.

Today’s example comes from the Debunking Christianity blog, which contains flashes of near-brilliance, as well as some of the most foolish thinking on the planet.  The specific post is by a guy named Spencer, who thinks he has a new approach to argue with Christians about the Resurrection. His idea?  Because we believe “God raised Jesus from the dead,” Christians not only have to prove the resurrection happened, they also have to prove that God did it. (I guess he thinks that perhaps Jesus was raised from the dead by someone like Satan, who was just playing a joke. )

His point is essentially true, that proving that Jesus resurrected does not logically prove that God was the cause of Jesus’ resurrection.  He, of course, fails to realize that there is no way for him to prove that his system of logic proves anything.  He also fails to realize that Christians don’t have to prove a thing.  He’s the guy trying to disprove something.

As W.C. Fields once said, “Go away, kid, ya bother me.”

How to find God (… but I didn’t know he was lost?)

Following up on my last two posts which dealt with finding a place from which to properly discover and discuss who the God of Christianity really is, here is an exerpt from NT Wright, from The Meaning of Jesus – Two Visions (pp 214,215):

The key issue in all theology is how to speak truly of God. If we are to speak of something that transcends space and time, this is beyond our ordinar world, how do we know what we are talking about? How can we know whether we are talking sense, let alone true sense?  How can we be sure that we are not … merely projecting our own self-image or our authority-figure fantasies on to the cosmic stage and calling them “god”?  The mainstream Christian answer has always been that, though the one true God is in various ways beyond our imagination, let alone our knowledge, and though even such knowledge as we may have is beyond our own unaided power to attain, this God has not left us to speculate, imagine, or project our own fantasies onto the screeen of transcendence; this God instead, through self-revelation, has given us such knowledge as is possible and appropriate for us.  And the same mainstream Christian answer has gone on to say that this self- revelation has taken place supremely in Jesus, the crucified and risen messiah of Israel.

The whole point of such a claim is, of course, that the one true God is known in Jesus himself, the human being who lived, worked, and died in first-century Palestine. Take that away, or split the historical Jesus off from the Christ known in faith, as some have tried to do, and you are left without a revelation of the one true God within our own world, the world of physicality and history.

… by close attention to Jesus himself, we are invited to discover, perhaps for the first time, just who the creator and covenant God was and is all along.  (Italics are mine)

This passage strikes at the heart of many attempts to write-off Christianity as just another invented religion.  The key is in Jesus himself, the guy who we read about in the Gospels.  It is important, then, for those who don’t want to face this Jesus, to try to discredit history through bad – even dishonest – scholarship.  At least honest atheists have stopped trying to prove that the man Jesus didn’t exist, which proved to be just embarrassing.   Not only is it reasonably certain that the Jesus of the Gospels did in fact exist and was executed by Pilate, the evidence for the resurrection is compelling, to use Anthony Flew’s adjective.

If someone wants a revelation of God, here it is, in the 1st 4 books of the New Testament.  The 4 authors have their own viewpoint, as eyewitnesses and reporters always do, but contrary to Bart Ehrman’s foolish interpretations, the paint a remarkably whole picture of Jesus.

This, of course, brings us back to the issue of whether the Gospels are, in fact, inspired documents. However, even if we just look at them as any ancient text, they serve their purpose.  Christians do not (or should not) worship the Bible; it is, however, the Word of God – that which formerly was in oral form, reduced to writing.  However, our faith is based on Jesus himself, who continues to reveal himself to Christians today.

Atheism, morality and deconversion

This is just a quick post to recommend some extra-curricular reading.  First, here’s an interesting post that fits nicely with my recent series on morality as a basis for atheism from Common Sense Atheism.

Next, theBEattitude gives the reasons why he recently left Christianity, and Michael Spencer’s commentary on this post.  Both are well-worth reading, if you’re at all concerned about what is going on inside and outside the Christian Ghetto.

More from me soon.

Is salvation really free?

Marlene Winell makes a very interesting point today on the Debunking Christianity blog:

I’ve thought that there is a fundamental contradiction in the evangelical message of salvation because, according to them, it is NOT Christ’s atoning death that saves you, it is YOUR BELIEF in it. (otherwise everyone would be saved). Therefore, this is not a salvation by grace, it is another salvation by works, albeit cognitive work. You must DO several things – find out about and understand the atonement, accept that Jesus dies for your sins, feel guilt and express your sorrow for being responsible, ask forgiveness, and invite Jesus “into your heart” to rule for the rest of your life.


I’ve wandered a bit from my initial point, which was that this doctrine is a salvation by works, ie, it is the accomplishment of the believer. Maybe that is why fundamentalists are so smug.

Sometimes non-Christians are quite good at picking up on theological inconsistancies.

What are your thoughts?

Atheists: No God, no reason, just whining

From Charlotte Allen in the LA Times:

I can’t stand atheists — but it’s not because they don’t believe in God. It’s because they’re crashing bores.

No doubt this will offend a lot of atheists, but those she mentions – and others – never seem to mind hurling insults at Christians.  As I have said before, I’m really glad these folks have come out in support of intolerance; these days, it’s a rare item.  As G.K. Chesterton said, “Tolerance is the virtue of a man with no convictions.”

Continue reading

More on morality and atheism

This post follows up on the discussion on my prior post, Moral reasons for atheism, in which I suggested that many atheists choose not to believe in God because of moral issues – they don’t want to change, acknowledge sin, or acknowledge any absolute moral code – not because of intellectual issues.  Modern atheists typically try to pass themselves off as being rationalists, discounting a belief if God because God is not possible in the universe they have invented to believe in – one is only material in nature.

To perhaps oversimplify the argument (but not by much):

  1. the only evidence we can accept is that which is verifiable in accordance with the modern, scientific approach.
  2. we cannot verify the existence of any non-material being according to the method.
  3. therefore we must assume God does not exist.

It is, of course, self-fulfilling; but in the absence of any greater understanding, this argument “works” for them.  Most, for example, simply ignore the fact that “the method” is not itself something which can be proven to work. There are foundational issues with a reliance on reason itself which I’ve discussed before.  The only way that atheism functions in its current state is really to sidestep these issues completely.  But, if belief in God is merely an intellectual issue, why would anyone not want to deal with these issues?  It begs the question of what, then, is the real issue.

Now, I am not saying that atheists are immoral and Christians are moral; nothing, in fact, could be further from the truth. We are all immoral creatures.  At the very heart of Christianity is the acceptance that “all have sinned” and that we are saved “by grace and not by works, that no man should boast.”   Martin Luther coined the phrase, simul iustus et peccator – simultaneously saint and sinner; we are made perfect in Christ, but on our own we stand condemned by the law.  To deny that we are in any way righteous, or even morally superior, is to have a false gospel; Christians who claim a morally superiority are frauds (I’ve just finished writing a book on this).

One of the problems with modernism – which, by the way, we were all “baptized” into, whether we like it or not – is dualism, in its many forms.  We separate the physical from the spiritual, mind from body, and mind from emotions.  Slowly doctors are discovering that we are more internally connected than modernism would want us to be; many physical ailments are in fact known to have emotional causes.

This dualism is handy if we want to ignore our emotional or moral components; we can pretend to be totally objective, we can create wonderful logical arguments, and we can use lots of fancy-sounding words to sound intellectual. However, I do not think that any of us can reduce the choices we make about what we believe about life and God to mere intellectual issues. We are more complex than that.  A lot is said about intellectual dishonesty – arguing things we know are not correct – but not much is said about emotional or moral dishonesty when talking about a belief in God (except, it seems, by Christians who are unable to grasp the intellectual issues; it’s that dualism thing again).

In discussing one’s choice of beliefs (and I insist they are choices), I believe we have to take more of a gestalt approach.  We all have our issues; that is, those things we acknowledge as maters for discussion. We also have our interests, the things that really matter to us, that may be unconscious motivators, and the more substantive of the two.   Morality – not “being good,” but how we view what is good or bad – is, I suspect, at the very core of who we are.  It is interesting that guilt is nearly universal; the absence of guilt pretty much makes you a sociopath, even if you’re an atheist.  Since we all have our internal morality meters, we all deal with sin, even though atheists wouldn’t consider it as such. But, as Paul wrote, to do that which someone considers wrong is for him, sin.

What is different is how we deal with sin.  We can blame it on evolution, upbringing, society, genetics, Adam, or Satan – most of us hate to blame ourselves, although most of us do, deep down.  This gap between who we really are and who we think we should be – what a friend calls the “crap gap” – affects us in more ways than most of us care to admit, whether we are Christians, Buddhists or atheists.

Intellectual debates are great, for what they are.  I appreciate reason and logic, accepting their foundational weakness.  Many atheists are quick to point out the Christian’s need to believe in God; I’ve yet to see one own up to a need not to believe in God.  But, I suspect it’s there for many, if not for most.

Moral reasons for atheism

A few months ago I read a blog post – I was trying to find it, but couldn’t recall which blog – where a pastor wrote about an encounter he’d had the week before with a teenager from his congregation. The boy confessed that he no longer believed in God.  The pastor looked at the boy for a while, then asked, “So, how long have you been sleeping with your girlfriend?”  This, in fact, was the case.  The boy had no real issues of faith; what he had was an issue of morality.

I recall being told years back that most atheists rejected God for moral, not intellectual, reasons.  I have not presumed this in my dealings with atheists, and would never go so far as to apply this to all atheists.  However, over and over again I have run across outspoken atheists who are good machine-gunning intellectual arguments for atheism, but who turn out to have significant moral issues.  They deny that morality has anything to do with their beliefs, but often the coincidence is too obvious, and their arguments are not that good.

Morality may be, after all, one of the more common reasons for atheism.

In searching for the blog post I mentioned at the outset, I came across another story that was almost identical.  Coincidence?  Perhaps.  However, for someone dealing with guilt, unforgiveness, or simply a need to believe that right and wrong are not absolute, the easiest way to resolve the isse is to mentally do away with God, at least the Christian God.

I routinely read a blog by a young atheist who is very bright, and writes about atheism from a very logical point of view.  He is somewhat refreshing as he does occasionally agree with the other side on a point or two, at least giving the appearance of intellectual integrity.  Recently, I discovered that he also is a proponent of polyamory – good, old-fashioned licentiousness.  Coincidence?  Perhaps.

Issues of morality for which atheism provides some conscience-relief include sex outside of marriage, including adultery.  As I mentioned earlier, unforgiveness – the inability to forgive or the resentment for not having been forgiven – can only be justified if there no God.  The same is true for self-righteousness, which includes many arguments about the problem of evil and suffering.  The only way to really make a good argument about evil and suffering is to somehow ignore the fact that you are a contributing cause; once that concession is made, the argument is somewhat deflated.

I am not saying that there are not purely intellectual arguments in favor of atheism (none are very good, in my opinion), or that people can’t sincerely believe in any of these arguments; however, more and more I see indications that people have reasons other than purely intellectual ones to chose to believe what they believe.

Obviously, I can’t prove this; however, this does seem to agree with Paul in Romans 1.  At the very least, morality plays a large part in many people’s decisions concerning religion.